[Transcripts for video below]
Margaret “Megan” Brown, R.N., Esq., is a practicing attorney and licensed R.N. who has a side business as a women’s career consultant and negotiation coach. She graduated from the Virginia Commonwealth University/Medical College of Virginia School of Nursing and graduated from law school at Lewis and Clark College in Portland, Oregon.
She worked as an R.N. for seven years in critical care and hospice before practicing law. She has also worked in inpatient nursing management, clinical risk management, performance improvement, and clinical compliance. At Megan Brown Consulting, Megan’s passion is teaching women how to negotiate salary, wages, and benefits in their careers.
She has years of professional and personal negotiation experience, and she teaches her consulting clients how to successfully negotiate for the salary, benefits and work arrangements that they need and deserve. Her mission is to teach women how to ask for what they need in their careers and to close the gender-based pay gap by empowering women to ask to be paid what they’re worth!
Homework
0:00:06.2 Professor Walden: Hello, hello, everyone. Good evening, we are live, and I am so excited to be here, and I bet you are excited as well. As always, do not worry if you miss this ’cause this one is going to be packed full of information and you are going to want it, especially since we are at that point where everyone is looking and finding their positions. So it’s about that time that we start talking about negotiations. We are going to have Ms. Brown, Ms. Megan Brown, come and talk to us about how to negotiate, what that means and all of the nuances and intricacies that kind of come with that.
0:00:42.2 PW: Clearly, we need a specialist. Remember, I always say closed mouths don’t get fed. But there is a way to do that. And there’s a reason why we should be doing that. So I’m excited. I am excited to listen in with you guys, and to have her talk about this. But with that being said, let me go ahead and introduce Megan. So it’s Megan Brown. She’s an RN, and a lawyer, and she’s a practicing attorney who has a side business as a women’s career consultant, and negotiation coach. She graduated from the Virginia Commonwealth University, Medical College of Virginia, School of Nursing, and graduated from law school at Lewis & Clark College in Portland, Oregon.
0:01:24.1 PW: She worked as an RN for several years in critical care and hospice before practicing law. She has also worked in inpatient nursing management, clinical risk management, performance improvement and clinical compliance. At Megan Brown Consulting, Megan’s passion is teaching women how to negotiate salary, wages and benefits in their careers. She has years of professional and personal negotiation experience. And she teaches her consulting clients how to successfully negotiate for the salary, benefits and work arrangements that they need and deserve.
0:01:58.0 PW: Her mission is to teach women how to ask for what they need in their careers and how to close the gender based pay gap by empowering women to ask to be paid what they’re worth. We are aware that there are not all women in this group. So do not worry, do not fret, guys, this information obviously still applies to you, the techniques and things that you will learn with her still apply to you. However, her specialty is women. But I am excited that you guys just along with me get to listen in. And we’re going to learn how to do this because we can all get better at negotiating our salaries and whatever else is important to you. So I’m going to bring Megan on up. Hi, Megan.
0:02:43.9 Megan Brown: Hi, Latrina.
0:02:47.3 PW: Fantastic. I’m super excited that you’re here, we have a couple of students already popping on. So they are already excited and listening in and ready to hear what you have to say.
0:03:00.2 MB: Well, I’m sorry, I don’t want to interrupt…
0:03:00.7 PW: No, no, go ahead, go ahead.
0:03:02.7 MB: Well, I just wanted to say thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here and really excited to be talking to nurses. Yeah. And I love working with nurses. I think that nurses are a very receptive bunch. And I also want to say that, like you said, the information that I’ll present tonight is, you know, applies equally to women and to men. Certainly my experience in negotiating personally is obviously as a woman, but the skills that you would need to negotiate successfully, these skills can be used obviously by men or women or anyone in between. So equal opportunity negotiation skills tonight.
0:03:42.4 PW: Right. Awesome. All right, guys. So hopefully you have your pen and your paper. If you don’t have that right now, go back and rewatch and you’ll have that. So, Megan, what I’m going to do is, I’m going to come off the screen, and I’m gonna mute my mic. Don’t worry, I’m still around. When I hear you wrapping up, guys, I will pop back in and we will wrap this up. So enjoy as I will be. Alright, it’s your show.
0:04:06.7 MB: Alright, great. Thanks, Latrina. So, like Latrina said, tonight I’m going to be talking about salary and contract, and pay negotiation basics for nurse practitioners. But these can certainly be used by anyone, any professional, anywhere. And I think some of these skills too can be used just in your own lives. So I think this information will help you negotiate not just with potential employers, or current employers, but in other areas of your life as well.
0:04:36.9 MB: And Latrina told you a little bit about my professional history. And I’ll add to that, that I started negotiating salary actually when I was in law school. And I started negotiating really just on a whim. And I was working as a law school intern one summer for a law firm in Portland, Oregon. And I continued to do some work for them during the fall semester, after my internship had ended. And I was doing chart review, I was actually doing medical record review for them. And they were continuing to pay me the same salary that they had paid me as an intern, which I don’t even remember what it was, honestly. I mean, it might have been $10-$15 an hour, I’m not sure.
0:05:27.9 MB: But at a certain point, I thought, you know, the work that I’m doing for you is really based on my RN knowledge, right? My knowledge working as an RN. And so at a certain point, I sent an email to the hiring attorney and basically said, “I’m happy to continue doing this work, but I’d like to be paid as an RN, since that’s really what I’m doing for you.” And I’ll never forget, he wrote back. And now it’s, I’ll say, and I’ll get to this later, it’s always easier doing that over email. It’s easier, I think, negotiating over email. And I think email has, in some ways, made it much easier to negotiate salary and benefits.
0:06:09.8 MB: But in any event, he wrote back. And he said, “Congratulations to you for asking for what you’re worth.” And without any further discussion agreed to pay me the rate at which I had asked, which was, I don’t even recall. But because that was so successful, and it was really so easy, I kept doing it. And fast forward to today, where, as Latrina said, I’m a practicing attorney, so I do a lot of negotiation in my work. So for my company, I work in house for a healthcare company, a healthcare corporation. And I do a lot of different things. But one of the things that I do is negotiating contracts, negotiating agreements, negotiating with vendors.
0:06:57.1 MB: I do some human resources personnel work, and that involves some negotiation. I work on malpractice settlements, and that involves negotiation. So a lot of what I do involves professional negotiation. But on a personal note, I have negotiated extensively with my employer for a flexible work arrangement. And what I mean by that is, I work for a company that’s very old school. So everyone is in the office, eight to five, Monday through Friday. That’s just, you know, the tone that’s set at the top, that’s their expectation, that’s their desire.
0:07:37.1 MB: And I have negotiated, over time, something quite different for myself where I work at home part time. I don’t leave at five every day, I leave early a couple of days a week, so that I can go and be with my kids after school. And I have a fair amount of flexibility. Just again, on a personal note, I’m a single mom. So I really need that. I’m the only woman working in the department. And they’ve really worked with me on that. And so I wouldn’t have gotten any of that had I not asked. Similarly, I’ve negotiated salary extensively. And because I negotiated a pretty significant raise a few years back, for the past few years, my raise has been based on the increased salary that I negotiated.
0:08:19.7 MB: And I’ll get to that later in the discussion, how important it is to negotiate and to negotiate early for what you’re worth, because as time goes on and you move through your career, your future raises and bonuses are going to obviously be based on that threshold salary that you hopefully negotiated at the beginning. So all of that said, I’ll start off with why negotiate. The first reason to negotiate is that I can tell you 100% from my personal and professional experience, that if you do not negotiate your offers, if you don’t negotiate your salary, if you don’t negotiate your pay, whether it’s hourly, what have you, if you don’t attempt to negotiate your benefits, or whatever it is that you need at work, you’re almost always leaving money on the table.
0:09:11.2 MB: So, as Latrina said, which I really like, closed mouths don’t get fed. And again, nothing ventured, nothing gained. So I’ll get later in my discussion to the fact that that’s just inherently awkward and difficult. It can be, I think, much more difficult for women than for men, just culturally, in terms of how we’re raised as women. But in any event, I can promise you that you will be leaving money on the table if you don’t negotiate. Sometimes you might attempt to negotiate and it’s just not in their budget, and they’ll tell you so. But if it is, and if they want you, they will pay you more, almost always. So I just want to leave you with that. And again, the impact of not negotiating is monumental. And it compounds over time, because, as I said, all future raises and many bonuses are going to be based on your initial salary or rate of pay, if you continue in the same job.
0:10:14.4 MB: So it doesn’t just affect you that year, it affects you for years to come, if you accept a job offer, and you don’t attempt to negotiate. And see, employers actually expect you to negotiate, they expect that candidates may well try to negotiate. They often expect that more men than women are going to negotiate because more men than women do negotiate. But they expect that and they’re ready for that. So and that’s part of what I do in my consulting business, is I teach women those skills. So I just want you to keep that in mind.
0:10:49.2 MB: And the other thing too is that salary and pay negotiation is becoming more and more and more common. I have some data that this is per glassdoor.com, in 2016, only 41% of employees negotiated salary or pay. In 2019, three years later, 58% of women and 61% of men negotiated salary in their current work. So I don’t have more recent figures. But those numbers continue to climb. Now, you might ask what about the current climate? What about the climate in COVID when there have been such just devastating economic situations for many businesses and many employers? But you all work in healthcare, and the need for providers doesn’t go away.
0:11:35.1 MB: So I will come back to that, I wanna put that in the parking lot for right now, but I will come back to that. So under the category of why negotiate, it’s not just because you’re leaving money on the table if you don’t, not just because the impact of not negotiating compounds over time, but I think it’s really true that if you’re compensated appropriately and fairly, that you’ll do a better job. If you’re not getting paid what you think you’re worth, or what you are worth, I think over time that breeds resentment, and also just not being as invested in your work.
0:12:10.7 MB: And I also just want you to remember that, you know, negotiating for salary and pay isn’t about what you deserve. It’s about what’s fair, based on your market value and the kind of job that you’re doing, and the kind of work that you’re going to be doing. And lastly, but not least, another reason to negotiate that’s really near and dear to my heart is that, you know, there is a, as you well know, there’s both a gender based wage gap, particularly in many professions, not in all professions. And there are also racially and ethnic based wage gaps.
0:12:47.4 MB: And so, you know, in my opinion negotiating, when women negotiate, when minorities negotiate, you are helping to decrease those wage gaps. So I won’t get into a soapbox there. And that’s really a whole other conversation. But I throw that under the category of very important reasons why to negotiate. And then the next thing I want to talk about is why do some candidates not negotiate? A lot of people on this call or who are listening to this video may never have negotiated. This may be your first job. Maybe it is, maybe it’s not, maybe you’ve just never negotiated because you didn’t know that you could or you’ve never gotten up the nerve to do it, but that is one reason that candidates don’t negotiate, is because it can be inherently awkward. If you’ve never done it, even if you have done it, I can tell you that for me, my last round of negotiations with my employer for my own work situation, it was awkward.
0:13:42.2 MB: It’s hard to ask for something, I think just sort of on a very sort of Darwinian sort of biological basis, you know, we fear rejection, right. So when you put yourself out there, you just don’t know what you’re going to get back. And I think the other thing, too, and I don’t want to exclude the men in the room, but I think this is true for women. For women, culturally, we are taught to make nice, we’re taught not to make waves, we’re taught not to ruffle feathers. So it can just be harder for women to negotiate. That’s why a lot of why women don’t negotiate.
0:14:17.3 MB: And you need to do some work to really be able to do that and do it well. And I’ll come back to that, because the benefits of negotiating, of earning what you’re worth, are worth it. And so regarding the awkwardness, I think you just have to accept that, yeah, it’s gonna be awkward on the inside and might feel icky if I’m stepping outside of my comfort zone, but I think to earn what you’re worth, you just have to move through that. And again, if you can negotiate over email, it makes it a lot easier. There are times where email’s not appropriate for negotiation, especially if you’re negotiating a number of different things and there’s a number of moving parts. But email can make that awkwardness piece easier.
0:15:02.2 MB: And also being prepared makes it much less awkward. So one of the things I do in my business is, I literally give my client scripts, this is what you need to say. And if they do this, then you say this. And if they do that, then you say this. It’s easier if you’re prepared. And certainly, again, if you can be behind a screen, that’s easier, if you’re on the other end of a telephone and you’re not looking at them, it’s even easier. Sometimes money will come up in the interview, and you need to be prepared to talk about it. And I will come back to that.
0:15:29.4 MB: Another reason why candidates, some of them, don’t negotiate, is that they lack confidence. To ask for what you think you’re worth, right, you have to believe in yourself, you have to have a certain degree of confidence. So what I would say is channel your inner superpower to get yourself ready to negotiate salary benefits, you know, your flexible work arrangement, whatever the work arrangement is that you’re going for. And one thing that I do in my own work… Or I should say, in my own work life, in my personal work life, in negotiating with my employer, is that it’s really helped me to think about, “Well, who am I negotiating for?”
0:16:10.8 MB: I’m negotiating on behalf of my children. So I need this raise because I want to do, you know, certain things for my kids, I want them to have a certain standard of living, I want them to be able to do certain things, go to certain schools, etcetera. And I think considering who you’re representing, your children, your grandchildren, other women, really helps to sort of mitigate the effects of that awkwardness because you’re thinking about this other people. And you’re really, hopefully, you’re able to sort of get to a place where you’re thinking about the fact that you’re negotiating for them too. And I think that’s really empowering.
0:16:47.2 MB: And then I think to think really critically about what could that additional money, compensation, benefits, you know, work arrangement, what have you, what can that mean for you and your family? If you don’t have kids, what does that mean for you personally? What will that afford you? And another reason why some candidates, I think, don’t negotiate is honestly they don’t know that they can, they just never have. I know when I first negotiated, I just never thought to do it. I wasn’t raised that way. I had worked for any number of years in healthcare, and I’d never asked for… Or I’d never asked for more than they offered me, I never thought to do that because I wanted to go along and get along and be liked. And that’s a whole other conversation, but the desire to be liked really can get in the way of being able to negotiate. So I think that although you always want to negotiate professionally, you always want to negotiate cordially, because that is one thing that can undo an offer, is to negotiate the wrong way, and to negotiate unprofessionally. I think that, you know, some people just don’t know that they can, so but anyone can. And again, based on my work that I do every day for my company, and in my own experience, almost everything is negotiable.
0:18:08.5 MB: Now again, they may not have the budget, they may not be able to offer you what it is that you need or want or are asking for. But if they really want you, and if they have it in the budget, they’re gonna offer you more to entice you to accept the offer, or to stay, if you’re with, you know, negotiating with a current employer. Another reason that some candidates, I think, don’t negotiate is they’re afraid of this idea that a job offer is going to be rescinded. You know, that, “If I don’t just accept it outright, they’re gonna take back the offer.” And in my experience, that just never happens. Now, I think that, again, if you were to attempt to negotiate in a way that was unprofessional, and they decided they just didn’t like you, well, maybe they would rescind the offer, but that’s not because you’ve attempted to negotiate. It’s because you have done it unprofessionally. And none of you would do that. I’m simply saying that if an employer wants you, then professional attempts at negotiation are never going to result in them rescinding the offer.
0:19:15.0 MB: So now I wanna move on to preparation and research to prepare for negotiating. Because it’s critical that, I think, before you even put in your application for a job or apply for a job, that you’ve done your research. You’ve done research on a number of different levels. But one is on the company. One is on what they typically pay their providers. If possible, do research on the practice, the structure, how they’re compensating their providers. And then also, do research on your market value. How many years of practice do you have? What are the things on your skill and resume checklist that make you even more desirable? So again, I think you wanna do that preparation before you submit it, because you might be very surprised. You might submit an application, you might get it… They might be so desperate, they call you the next day.
0:20:10.3 MB: They happen to have somebody sitting in that desk in HR and somebody calls them up and says, “Call this candidate. I want them.” They call you, and if HR calls you, they have a way of asking sometimes on that very first phone call, a question that you might not be prepared for, which is, what are you hoping to make? And I wanna caution you on how you answer that question. Not answering that question with a figure ever, not tipping your hand. But being prepared for that question because it can come, and you wanna be prepared to field it and not fall into the trap of just throwing out a figure. Well, I was hoping to make X.
0:20:51.0 MB: Oh my goodness, don’t tell them that because then you’ve kind of torpedoed the possibility of future negotiation attempts above that figure. So you don’t wanna be caught off guard, which is why I say prepare. Not only prepare for what it is you need to make, what it is you wanna make, what do you think, based on your discussion with current employees? Do you have friends, colleagues who are working at that hospital, or at that practice, or at that group who can share with you information about pay and how it’s structured, etcetera? That’s part of the research that you should do. Obviously, as part of your research you’re gonna determine, is the position salaried? Is it per hour or per day, etcetera? Per patient. And how are they gonna compensate you?
0:21:42.9 MB: You can try to determine the worth of services based on the practice charges per patient visit and your expected patient load per day or per week. You can get that information during the interview. Perhaps you, again, you have a colleague, a friend who works there, they might be able to share with you some of that information. I, at this point in the presentation, I’m not gonna go into the relative value scale, where we really look at the overhead, the malpractice cost, and then what a practice really wants to make in terms of profit, and therefore what you can expect to be paid based on those calculations. I think that’s a little bit more advanced.
0:22:27.5 MB: And again, that’s going to… That information and those numbers are gonna be based partly on obviously what you learn in the course of the interview or from colleagues, people you know who work there. I also think that you have to be careful about some of the questions that you do ask. There are certain basic questions you’re gonna wanna know. How many patients am I expected to see a day? A week? How much time do I get to spend with each of those patients? Do I have take call? How much call am I gonna take, etcetera? The answers to those questions will help you determine, I think, what you’re gonna expect to make at that practice, at that group, at that hospital, etcetera. But aside from that, if this position that you’re looking for, if the positions that you’re looking at are straight salaried positions, then you can try and determine your market worth through sites like, for example, glassdoor.com, payscale.com.
0:23:32.6 MB: What does an NP with my level of experience make in this geographic area, in this sort of care setting? So when you use those sites to help determine your market worth, you’re gonna end up plugging in your skills, experience, etcetera, that… Etcetera. There’s also these intangibles, sort of, your ability to make contributions above and beyond the typical NP. Your employer may or may not take those things into consideration, but they may. So also consider, again, if you’ll take call, and then depending on what you know, you can look at what percentage of other provider salaries in that practice are based on call. You can consider if you do the hospital rounds, for example. When you get an offer, you’re also gonna wanna look at the benefits, obviously. What kind of vacation are they gonna pay you? What kind of sick pay? What kind of retirement matching do they give you?
0:24:31.1 MB: Health insurance, disability, etcetera. Professional memberships. Do they pay you a travel stipend if you have to travel? Do they pay your cell phone? What are all those benefits? Because they really add up. So you’re gonna wanna look at all of that. But again, one of the first steps is to determine your market worth. So that’s part of being prepared. And that’s one of the things that I talk to my clients about in my practice, is here’s how you determine what you’re worth. And you really wanna do that, again, before you submit your applications. Because you wanna know what you’re worth before you go in for your interviews. And again, do peer research. Talk to your friends, talk to your colleagues, talk to other providers, who you’re comfortable talking to, and ask them, “What do you think is a reasonable salary rate for this position?”
0:25:19.2 MB: “What do you think is a reasonable pay rate for this position?” Something else you need to do is you need to determine your expectations, your needs, your bottom line. So before you apply for those jobs, I believe part of being prepared is determining your walk-away number. What’s my walkway number? What do I have to make to meet my needs and my expectations, what I need and want to do for myself or for my family? So those are all different numbers. What’s my worth? What do I want to be paid? What would I like to be paid, based on the information that I know about this job? And what’s my walk-away number? What do I have to be paid?
0:26:02.2 MB: Like I mentioned earlier, you want to be prepared to answer questions about your salary expectations when they first come up. And when I say be prepared, I don’t mean you need to have a number and you need to share with them a number. That’s not what I mean. I mean, you just need to be prepared to answer that question, how you’re gonna answer that question, and it doesn’t need to be by giving them a number. So again, when you get a phone call for the interview, they may ask you, “What are your salary expectations for this position?” That’s very sneaky when they do that. When you get that kind of a question, I always recommend that you say something like, “I would need additional information about the position before I come to that figure.” Just keep it very bland and generic.
0:26:51.8 MB: Nobody’s gonna argue with that. You don’t know. You don’t know what the patient load is gonna be. You don’t know what the call situation is gonna be. There are lots of things you don’t know about the benefits, etcetera. So perfectly reasonable. So I advise to always give that kind of an answer, if you happen to get that question preliminarily. I think that if you get that question during the course of an interview, if they meet with you, you talk, they tell you about the job. You think, “Wow, I really might like this job.” They seem to really like you. It’s going really well. One of the things that can happen before they get to what are your expectations is sometimes they will ask questions about your salary history. Now, I’m no longer working as a provider.
0:27:38.0 MB: It’s been a long time since I worked as a provider. I was not an advanced practice nurse. I worked as an RN and I have my B.Sc in Nursing. And I will say that, I don’t know, I don’t know what the culture is now in HR departments and hospitals, at practices, private practices, etcetera. But I can tell you that from my own job… And I probably shouldn’t say this in a live interview, but I was asked a salary history question, and I avoided it. And I’ll tell you how I avoided it in just a minute. But you never wanna share your current salary or your rate of pay, and here’s why. Because if you are asked that, it is very likely that they are going to use that number as an anchor. And what I mean by an anchor is instead of basing your offer on your skills, degrees, qualifications, years of work history, they’re gonna base that offer, guess what, on what your current employer is paying you, which has nothing to do with anything.
0:28:46.7 MB: And as on a policy level, that question is actually illegal in more than a handful of states now. I’m not sure how many. It’s been a while since I looked at that, but it’s more than a handful. More than two handfuls. And there are reasons for that, policy reasons. Because sharing salary history can perpetuate the racially-based, ethnically-based wage gap, the gender-based wage gap. So it’s just not a good thing. If you are asked that question, it can be tricky to respond, but I want you to be prepared for that. And that’s not really what this lecture is about, but I do want you just to be prepared for that because as wonderful as your intentions can be to negotiate, if you get that question and you accidentally answer it, you’ve kinda shot yourself in the foot a little bit.
0:29:42.0 MB: So here’s what happened in my job interview. I’ve been at my company for five years. And I had a number of interviews, but in my last interview, the hiring attorney said to me, “I don’t know if I’ve asked you your current salary.” And I just said, “No, you haven’t.” And then again later in the conversation he said something about, “I don’t know if you’ve shared your current salary with HR.” Because I had submitted an application. And I just said “No, I didn’t.” And you know, maybe that came across as a little cheeky, I didn’t care because… I, prior to that, was working in compliance. I had been a stay-at-home mom after having my kids. I had been a stay-at-home mom for a number of years. When I went back to work, I was working in clinical compliance and I wasn’t making what I was gonna make as an attorney. Well, I was interviewing for an attorney job, so he didn’t need to know what I was making in my clinical compliance job because it wouldn’t have been appropriate for them to pay me that.
0:30:44.7 MB: But clearly they would have used that number as an anchor. So even well meaning employers, even in states where they have laws against this, some municipalities have laws against this, the question is often asked, so just be prepared for it. So deflection techniques that you can use that are uncomfortable, but if you do it very politely, it’s okay. It’s okay to just deflect it and you really need to just deflect it. It’s okay to say, “My current employer considers that information confidential.” Now, that may or may not be true. If it is true, it’s easy to say it. If it’s not true, it’s harder to say it. And I’ll leave it at that. But that is one possible answer to that question. Just kinda say it casually and just kind of keep it cool. And then you can also say without being snooty about it, just again, keeping it cool, just saying, “You know, I’d rather that my salary for this job be based on my skills and experience than on my prior salary.”
0:31:43.0 MB: Just stop there. Don’t keep talking. They’re not gonna argue with that. It’s gonna be a little awkward. There might be a silence. It’s okay. You don’t have to fill it. And I will say this, if for whatever reason you decide that you’re gonna share your current salary, please be honest, never inflate it. Because if they find out your current salary, and HR departments talk, if they somehow find that out by talking to your former supervisor, what have you, and you have not been honest with them, that is one reason, one grounds for rescinding an offer. That has nothing to do with negotiation, it just has to do with dishonesty. If an employer thinks that a candidate has been dishonest, in my experience, they’re gonna rescind that offer very quickly. And I share that only because it’s just part of this conversation. So obviously, it goes without saying, always be honest. And you would be honest, but I wanted to throw that in there.
0:32:40.1 MB: So that said, if you are going to negotiate, which I sincerely hope that all of you do as you are looking for this job. And not only this, your first job as an NP, but as you go throughout your life, if you have multiple career changes, as I have, if you find yourself taking different jobs as the years go on, I hope that you will always remember this advice and remember to negotiate. Remember who you’re negotiating for, which is not just yourself, it’s for your family. And it’s for people everywhere. If you’re a woman, you’re negotiating for other women. If you’re a person of color, you’re negotiating for other people of color. So I’ll get off my soapbox, but I just want you to remember that. So if you are going to negotiate, here are some things you need to do.
0:33:30.5 MB: You always need to be positive, collegial, and professional in how you negotiate. That goes without saying. But appropriately assertive. You can be appropriately assertive while also being positive, collegial, and professional. So I think that’s self-explanatory. Number two, once you receive an offer, do not respond immediately. Do not get so excited about that phone call offering you the job that you immediately, in that phone conversation, accept the job with the initial offer. You really should negotiate. If you get an email extending a job offer, don’t just shoot back and reply email. Absolutely, I accept the job and I accept that salary. Just don’t do it. Try and negotiate. And if you’re in an interview and they actually offer you the job on the spot, don’t accept it right away.
0:34:43.2 MB: And I’m gonna talk with you about how you can talk through that professionally. Still let them know you are excited about that job, you are excited about that opportunity, and that you are seriously gonna consider it, but that you need X number of hours to think about the offer, to think about the salary offer, to think about the benefits, etcetera. Believe me, if they want you, they’re gonna want you 24 hours from now, and they’re gonna want you 48 hours from now. Now, they’re not gonna wanna wait too long, because they need to fill that position. But do not accept the offer right away is one of the most important pieces of advice I can give you. You may want to, but you just sort of red check that enthusiasm and that excitement about getting that offer and put on your business hat.
0:35:28.3 MB: If the offer is less than your expectations, you can certainly tell the recruiter or hiring manager, whoever extends to you the offer, whether you’re responding in writing or over the telephone or in person, you can certainly tell them, “I was hoping to make a salary or a pay rate in the market range for this position, which my research indicates is X. I’m very interested in working with the practice, and I’ll need X number of hours to consider the offer. 24 to 48.” I think that sounds kind of stilted as I say it, but the more you practice the verbiage that you’re gonna use, the easier that it gets. And again, the less awkward it is if you’re doing it electronically or even telephonically. If the offer is less than your base line, your walk away number, so to speak, it’s okay to say no. Or if you really want the job and you want and you’re willing and are ready to negotiate, you can tell the employer, “I would need to make X to accept the job.”
0:36:39.5 MB: You can give them a figure. And kinda also say, “I’m interested in the position, but I can’t accept it for less than X.” So there’s obviously any number of different permutations of verbiage that you can use, but… And there’s any number of scenarios that are gonna come up where the job offer is extended to you, whether it’s over email, whether it’s telephonically, whether it’s in-person. Whether it’s in-person at a first interview or a second interview, you just never know. But as I’ve said, never accept the first offer because there’s almost always more on the table. So what I will say is, once you get an offer, you want to respond within 24 to 48 hours, and you will have reached an agreement with them. Can I get back to you within 24 hours? Can I get back to you within 48 hours?
0:37:30.6 MB: If you need longer, if you need 72 hours, tell them, “I need 72 hours.” So take what you need. I think I might have said not longer than 48, but it can go to 72, especially if you’re going over a weekend. And you wanna respond first with enthusiastic, “Thanks for the offer.” You always wanna thank them. You need to give them, if possible, one reason, at least one reason why you’re excited about working with the company, this is in preparation for the negotiation. So you’re kind of buttering them up, you’re being professional, you’re being thankful, you’re being grateful, you’re being cordial because you wanna have a good relationship, right? And then an appropriately assertive statement about what you were hoping to make. “I was hoping to make something in the X to X range.” Now, it’s outside the scope of this hour to really go into how you determine that number.
0:38:26.2 MB: We talked a little bit about determining market value, again, we could talk about the mechanics of determining what’s the compensation structure at that practice, how many patients will you be seeing, what will your patient load be, what’s their overhead, etcetera? You may or may not get all of the information that you need to be able to make a really intelligent calculation like that, but you can certainly determine your market value. So you can tell them I was hoping to make a salary in the XYZ range, and see what they say. Now, I wanna throw this in there, some of you may have read the book Lean In that was written by Sheryl Sandberg, she’s now the COO of Facebook. And she’s written another book since then, I really loved her book Lean In. It’s about a lot of different things, women in business, women professionals, it’s, I think, a wonderful read for any professional woman or a man. But one of the things that she says… This is specific to women. Is that she believes… And this is a little bit controversial, but I actually think it’s true.
0:39:34.6 MB: For better or for worse, it’s just true. It’s just the nature of our culture. She says that she thinks women should always negotiate communally and that that will have better results, and I believe that. So what she recommends, and I recommend this as well, is that in the course of your negotiation, you find a way to present to the employer why paying you more than they initially offered you would be an asset to them. Right? So I think that being appropriately compensated for my skills and experience would make me more of an asset to your team. Find a way to say that, it’s not stilted, and again, that’s part of what I do in my business, is working on language and scripts with my clients.
0:40:16.3 MB: But you want to, if possible, not just in the course of negotiation, but at a certain point in the interview process, present to them that your skills and experience would really be an asset to their team. So it’s not so much focused on you, it’s focused on them, the team. One other piece of… One other note of caution, and this is for anyone in the group, man, woman whomever, in negotiating for a higher salary, a higher pay rate than they initially offered you, don’t disclose your own financial circumstances. So you don’t wanna say, “I need to make X because my husband, he’s about to lose his job and this and that.” Or “I need to make X because… ” Whatever your own personal circumstances are, don’t go into that with them, that’s not what it’s about, and frankly, they don’t really care, and it makes them uncomfortable. So just keep it strictly business. There might be very concrete reasons why you need to make X numbers of dollars, you don’t have to share that with them, that’s not gonna make them offer you the money, and it’s just gonna personalize the conversation in a way that you don’t need to do.
0:41:36.3 MB: That’s my business [0:41:36.7] ____ for you. And then also in negotiating, we’ve talked a lot about salary and pay rate, whether that’s hourly, per patient, whatever, but you don’t wanna overlook the benefits. So if you are negotiating or attempting to negotiate salary or benefits and they can’t offer you the rate that you were looking for, then you can try and negotiate other things. So you could consider proposing an extra weeks of vacation, extra week of vacation, flexible hours, additional continuing education reimbursement, additional travel allowance, whatever, what have you, the kitchen sink. You can negotiate things other than just your straight salary or just your straight rate of pay.
0:42:26.5 MB: So think about what’s most valuable to you and what you really need. And obviously, if you’re comparing, if you’re lucky enough to be comparing multiple offers, then you’re obviously gonna wanna look at insurance information and retirement information and all those other benefits directly, compare apples to apples to really make an informed decision. That’s not so much about salary negotiation, but that’s just sort of weighing different offers. And another thing that you wanna think about is, you can also negotiate your re-negotiation period. So if you’re signing a contract, you can insert a renegotiation clause that provides for re-negotiating in three months, in six months, what have you.
0:43:14.4 MB: You can also, in the course of your interviewing, and should, talk about your evaluation. When is your performance evaluation going to occur? When is your preliminary performance evaluation going to occur? And if your performance evaluation isn’t going to occur for a full year, you can negotiate a sooner evaluation with the goal of negotiating a higher rate of pay at that time. So you’re also… During the course of your discussion about evaluation, you’re gonna wanna find out who’s doing the evaluation, what it’s gonna be based on, that sort of thing.
0:43:46.1 MB: Regarding negotiations generally, one piece of advice I have is, don’t drag it out. So employers, if they need somebody, they needed to fill the job typically yesterday. And while I would not ever anticipate professional negotiations resulting in rescinding a job offer, if they get really protracted and they go on for a while, and it’s not easy peasy, let me give you my first answer within 48 or 72 hours, and it’s sort of two weeks from now, we’re still going back and forth and haggling over stuff, honestly, they may get impatient at that point, at that point that can be construed as not totally professional or it just doesn’t work for them.
0:44:25.1 MB: So I would just say to preserve goodwill, don’t drag it out. And if they can’t meet your needs after a few discussions, after a few email exchanges, then I would say withdraw your application, focus on other opportunities, because you wanna preserve that goodwill, you don’t wanna irritate them. So all of that said, a few brief things about negotiation… Negotiating while female, I’m getting to the end of our time here, and I wanna leave time for any questions, if there are any questions, although you can always feel free to contact me after the fact with any questions you have.
0:45:00.9 MB: But in terms of negotiating, while female, like I said before, try and negotiate communally. I’m excited about the opportunity, and I think I’d be a real asset to your team. However, I was expecting to… I was hoping to make a salary in the XYZ range. Also, if you’re negotiating while female, I do not recommend bringing up other offers. So if you have another offer on the table, I don’t recommend telling them that, and I just don’t like the tone that that creates. So if you’re weighing offers, weigh the offers. But you don’t need to tell them that. Reasonable minds may differ and we don’t have time to go into the ins and outs of that, and that’s really nuanced. But it just sort of gets to the tenor of a negotiation.
0:45:55.0 MB: Another thing, if you’re negotiating while female or male, don’t apologize. Don’t apologize for negotiating. Don’t apologize for anything in that negotiation process, unless you’re late to your job interview, [chuckle] then apologize, obviously, but just don’t. Because it doesn’t… It just doesn’t come across as appropriate and competent. And then also, like I said, don’t justify your ask with personal information about why you need to make a certain amount of money.
0:46:32.2 MB: So I’ve said a lot and I’ve shared a lot of information with you. There’s a lot more that we could talk about in terms of salary negotiation, again, whether you’re negotiating in person or over email or by telephone, those circumstances are very different, and you’ll wanna handle things differently depending on what your medium is. But just… I just wanna leave you with… Always remember, that if you don’t negotiate, you’re almost always leaving money on the table. Do good luck to all of you with your job search and with hopefully negotiating your very first salary or pay scale and other benefits, whatever else you want to negotiate. And just remember what I’ve shared with you personally about me, which is that I wouldn’t be working from home part-time, I wouldn’t be leaving work early two days a week to be with my kids after school, and I wouldn’t be making 15% more than I had made however many years ago, if I hadn’t negotiated. I negotiated a 15% raise that year because I felt like I wasn’t getting paid what I’m worth. So now, like I said, all of my bonuses, all of my raises are being based on that higher salary, so go out there and ask for what your worth because you’re worth it. So with that, I’ll turn it back over to Latrina for any questions that may have come up.
0:47:54.6 PW: Perfect, thank you so much, I was feverishly taking notes. So it was wonderful. You got lots of wows, and this is great information, that’s kind of what was coming up in the chat. One question that did pop up was the figure question. So if they ask you the figure, what should your response be? And you kind of touched on that and said kind of those deflection techniques. Correct?
0:48:21.4 MB: So it depends on what stage you’re in, right? So if you get that kind of what I call the sneaky HR question, which the recruiter calls you to schedule an interview, or the practice manager calls to schedule an interview, and they are so nice and you’re chit-chatting, you’re getting comfortable talking about the weather and your kids and who you know in common, and then they really sweetly ask you what were you hoping to make for this position, in that stage of the game, you don’t wanna give them a figure. And so hopefully that partially answers the question. If you are in the stage of the game where they offer you X and then you wanna counteroffer, that counteroffer should be based on a number of things. Number one, your walk-away number, number two, your market value.
0:49:09.8 MB: So if your market value… So whatever your walk-away number is, that’s gonna vary for people, so there’s no straightforward answer to this question. But if your market value… Honestly, Latrina, I don’t know what NPs are paid today, so I’m just gonna pick a really easy number. If your market value where you live down south, wherever that is, whatever state in the United States you’re in, and your market value is $100,000 a year, that may be too high, may be to low for what this group is expecting, I don’t know. But let’s say that’s your market value.
0:49:46.2 MB: And they offer you $90,000. I do not suggest that you simply come back and say, “Well… ” You’re thinking in your head, “Well, my market value, based on all of my research and my conversations with my colleagues, it’s 100,000. And so I’m gonna ask for 100,000.” No, don’t do that, ’cause they’re never gonna give you what you ask for, unless you’re a unicorn, okay? If you wanna make 100,000, I always recommend inflating it by a certain percentage, and experts vary… Reasonable minds vary on how much you should inflate it. I say something reasonable. Something that’s not off-putting. I think inflating it by 25% above your market value is not necessarily reasonable and maybe off-putting to your employer.
0:50:35.9 MB: Because they then start to see you as [0:50:36.0] ____ like, “Who does this person think she is?” But if you inflate it, I think, 10% to 15%. So you think your market value is 100, so ask for 110, ask for 115, that’s not gonna be off-putting, they can still work with that. Now again, reasonable minds can differ, and that’s one of the things in my negotiation coaching, we’ll talk about their bottom line, we’ll talk about what the market value is, how much you want to inflate it, there may be other factors, it may be that there’s a particular benefit you want, like, they only offer four weeks of vacation or they only offer two weeks of vacation. I want four. You may decide not to ask for 15% more, but instead to throw that variable in. Or there may be two other variables that you wanna throw in. I want an X percent match and I want four weeks of vacation, what have you. You wanna be careful, with the more variables that you throw in there, but there may be things that are more important to you than just the money, than just that figure. So it really depends.
0:51:45.9 PW: I think that kind of bodes into what you were saying, negotiate what is important to you, so that’s always my response to people, is because my negotiating was never about the money, it was like you, it was about being flexible about my time. ‘Cause time is money to me, so it’s very important that I’m able to be there for my children, or I’m able to step away and have vacation when I need to have vacation. So the things that were important to me, a fair based salary, yes, but also the PTO, the ability to work from home if I needed to, those kinds of things, so much along the same lines that you mentioned. So determine what is important to you, because there are a number of things that we as NPs can negotiate in our contracts, but you need to have that main thing that this is kind of my hill to die on. If they don’t give me vacation because I’m seeing a lot of positions now that do not have any PTO, and it makes me panic. Because I am the one who believes in taking vacations, even if I’m not going anywhere.
0:53:00.2 MB: I’m really glad you brought that up, and I’m also looking at the clock, but I do wanna say that I’m glad that… I didn’t really hit on that earlier, I don’t think enough that different things are important to different people, obviously, and it may not be about the money at all, it may be how much flexibility do I have to be at home or take care of my kids or change my working hours, or to take PTO. And I do wanna share this with the group, so the amount of PTO that I was offered with my company was significantly less than I needed.
0:53:32.7 MB: And because you just shared that you’re seeing jobs that don’t have PTO at all, I wanna say this, you can negotiate to take unpaid time, right? Now, you’re like, “What’s the benefit in that?” The benefit in that is flexibility. I have negotiated to take an additional X number of weeks of unpaid time without penalty in my job. Do I want to take unpaid time? No, I don’t wanna take unpaid time. But guess what? That like you, the time is more important. So people might think that’s crazy, that’s just a reflection of who my employer is, I don’t mean that disparagingly, I just mean that’s my particular work. I work in a button-up, very traditional setting, and there are other people who, if they take X numbers of hours of time off beyond their agreed amount, they are going to incur a penalty. I don’t incur any penalty because I’ve negotiated that flexibility. There are lots of things you can negotiate.
0:54:29.7 PW: That’s awesome. So I think also… And you touched on it, you said it quickly, and I also too believe in it, and I’ll touch on the last important thing as well, but you mentioned kind of answering questions and then allowing the silence to happen. And so for… Again, that’s just one of those skills and muscles that you have to flex, you guys, because it is not a natural thing when there is silence we as humans, especially as women, want to fill it. So you have to be okay with simply saying, “I think you were talking about your salary.” Simply saying, “No, I have not done that.” Or “No, I have not given that,” and then being quite. And just kind of sit down with a smile on your face.
0:55:14.4 MB: Such a good point because like you say, this isn’t just true for women, I’m sure there’s many men out there who are like this too, but I think particularly for women, we want people to feel comfortable, right? We don’t want the interviewer to be uncomfortable, so if we say something that we think is gonna make them uncomfortable like we’re asking for more money or whatever, then we feel the need to sort of alleviate their discomfort, why by filling the silence or apologizing, so just as we don’t wanna apologize, we don’t wanna fill the silence. So I think that’s very important. So if you’re at the interview where you have counter… Let’s say you’re actually countering face to face. After you throw that number out there, after you ask and that you can present it as a figure or a range, and that’s really outside the scope of this call is one versus the other, because there are benefits to each. But after you throw that figure out there, just be silent, don’t apologize and don’t fill it. Just let them sit with the number and then let them take the conversation whatever direction they’re gonna take. They may really surprise you, “Look, we love you, we got the money. It’s in our budget. No problem, we’ll pay you.” Hopefully, that will happen.
0:56:26.5 PW: Exactly. Exactly. And then the last thing is, you said about the numbers, and you said know your worth, which is very important. You must know that number or at least feel that number or something, and you look at that by doing a little bit of research, figuring out what’s going on in your region, ’cause like you said, different regions pay different things, so make sure that you are region-specific, area-specific, and that you’re paying attention to what is being out there. And I know she mentioned it as well, talk to your colleagues. And again, that’s something that we didn’t touch upon. It is not taboo, you guys, we need to normalize talking about money, we all like it, we all like to shop, we all like to buy things, it is okay to talk about money, they are not signing your check. It is perfectly fine, but I do not know if I am being paid less or being less… If, being paid less, if I don’t have a frame of reference.
0:57:28.4 MB: I think that’s so true. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to interrupt.
0:57:31.9 PW: No, no, no. You’re fine, you’re fine. So that’s the one thing, know your worth. The number you’d like to be paid, so that is also a very good number to know. So the number that you would like to be paid, this would be like, in my ideal world, I would love to get my first job, and I make this much money. So that is the number that you would like to be paid. The last is your walk-away number. I call it my low point. So this is the absolute minimum I am willing to take. If they do not come to me with that number, then I am not taking this position. And so we cannot operate out of desperation because when you operate out of desperation, you lowball yourself.
0:58:16.2 PW: You just mess yourself up, like she said, like Megan said, you gotta remember who you’re negotiating for, and this will impact you for a long time, get very comfortable with compounding math and things like that. So you don’t wanna go in at a number that you just absolutely would not accept. Do not operate out of desperation, it will mess you up for a while, and then you’ll be unhappy. Okay. But yeah, those were the three things that I noticed, and I was like, yes, those are a very important numbers that you need to know.
0:58:49.2 MB: And it takes time to arrive at those figures, it takes time to do the research that is necessary to arrive at, for example, your market worth. Do you wanna get back to what you said about talking to one another, because I do think that for a lot of us, we were brought up in an environment where it was taboo. I know that my very first law firm job, I was told not to talk about money, not to talk with the other associate attorneys about my offer, and I really didn’t know what that meant. So if anybody tells you not to talk about money, just nod your head nicely and then go talk about money. [chuckle] That’s what I say. Do it smartly. I don’t say [0:59:22.9] ____, but it’s to your benefit and that’s how you’re gonna find out what are they paying other people, you know. Are they paying the women in my department 20% more? No, I’m reversing the normal, but am I possibly being offered less because of the color of my skin? These are very real things. Right, and you’d like to think those things don’t happen now, but it does. So to the extent that you can talk to people and talk about money, you should do it.
0:59:56.0 PW: Absolutely, absolutely. I think we’re so… Like you said, and even as nurses, being… I remember being a nurse on the floor and no one wanting to say what they made. And I think it’s just so important that we talk about these things because you cannot get better and negotiate. And keep in mind, you want to do this and use these… These numbers will likely increase as your experience increases. So while a lot of us may be first time jobs and this is our first NP position that we are going after, what you get in that position and you have those use of experience, which we have some in this group, your number should gradually increase because now you have more experience, and so you need to take that new set of numbers to your next negotiation. Don’t stay stagnant because then you’re not growing, your money is not growing. Again, we like money. There’s nothing wrong with that. Be paid appropriately.
1:00:52.5 MB: Do I have time to add one more thing?
1:00:53.7 PW: Yes, go ahead. Go ahead. Add one more thing.
1:00:53.7 MB: Like I know we’re over. Like I said at the beginning, these skills, if you hone these skills, these are skills that will serve you, not just in your job, in your life, negotiating with your lawn care company, negotiating with the person who does the head shots for your side business. Quick story, I had somebody do head shots for me, I asked him how much he charged, he gave me the figure, and I thought, well, I just… I’m not prepared to pay that. Guess what? I came back to him, I asked the following question, is that number negotiable? I didn’t suggest a new number, he came back to me and he reduced it by like 50%.
1:01:35.0 PW: Wow.
1:01:37.4 MB: True story, this is a true story. An incredible photographer, he was that hungry for the business. Everybody’s hungry to make a dollar, especially in today’s environment. So people, your vendors, your service providers, they are all inflating their numbers, don’t ever think that just because you wanna be likeable that you have to agree to pay X to, you know, the landscaping company, because you don’t. You need a big job done at your house, and they offer to do it for $4,000, ask them if it’s negotiable, and then ask them if they’ll do it for two. See what happens. [1:02:10.0] ____ and see what happens.
1:02:14.1 PW: That’s a very good point, because one of my first, very first negotiations was at Home Depot, was getting a new refrigerator. Guys, I kid you not. It was like one of my first, because this is a muscle you have to flex and you have to practice. And so you practice it anywhere you can. You practice it with your spouse, you practice it with your kids. I needed a new refrigerator, guys, and I wanted a fancy, grown up refrigerator. And what I did was I asked the guy, I’m not gonna pay $2,000 for the refrigerator. Can I get it a little lower? And I stared at him and waited, and I absolutely got it, lower than I probably should have. I think that refrigerator was $2,200. I think I paid like $1,600 at Home Depot. So this is at a place where we think that we’re not able to negotiate, when you are, if you act. You have to open your mouth and ask. So now, if I feel like I’m getting a wrong end of the deal, or there’s a hunch that kind of happens, I will ask. If I think it’s a fair price because I have really done my due diligence, I will be fine, a lot of times I’m still gonna ask, but my husband’s going to try to get me to stop. Because, again, it is a negotiation muscle that I have just naturally flexed and I tend to use in all of the spaces. Yeah. So I agree with you.
1:03:41.5 MB: I think that’s a great story. So even in these big box stores, even in these settings where you wouldn’t think that it’s negotiable, there’s always a mark up, and that old saying that almost everything is negotiable is true. Just like when you bought something online, you look for a promo code, when you go into Home Depot, your promo code is saying what she just said to the salesperson. And get it for 20% less.
1:04:05.1 PW: Right, exactly. And then just wait. I am so excited. I’ll wrap up ’cause you guys know I’m protective of your time, but I so appreciate this conversation, Megan, it was so great, lots of little takeaways. They always know that I love to give them homework, so there will be homework that goes along [1:04:21.5] ____ what Megan said, and just kind of tips and tricks, again, based upon the lecture that you guys received, so that you have that. I know for a fact that many of you, many of the students right now, they are in negotiations for a new position, so this is right on time. So I’ve had several reach out and ask questions, so this was good, good information, so I really, really appreciate you coming.
1:04:50.3 MB: Thank you so much for having me, this was a pleasure. I always love sharing this information. And to anyone who has any questions for me, you can reach me at megan@meganbrownconsulting.com.
1:05:01.4 PW: Awesome, thank you so much.
1:05:01.4 MB: Thanks, Latrina.
1:05:05.7 PW: Alright, guys. So I hope that you enjoyed that. It was fantastic information. I still have more notes that we will likely go over as a group, but what we are gonna do is we definitely are gonna put together your homework ’cause you guys know how I am. I want you to have actionable tips that you can do, because like I said, a lot of you are kind of in the throes of this process right now, so I want you to be prepared when you go into these final interviews and you are getting your contracts and you are negotiating. So I’m excited, I am really excited to see that you guys all enjoyed it, I see your comments saying that this was great. This is excellent information. So if you missed it, do not worry, as always, it will be in your portal on the replay, and if you have any questions, reach out to us. We will also put up Megan’s information so that you have that as well. But I’m just really excited for you to kind of go through this information. Please, guys, you guys gotta ask for what you’re worth, ask for the money. There is nothing wrong with asking. Okay, alright, so with that being said, we’re wrapping this up, and you guys have a great evening, and I’ll talk to you soon. Bye.